Cross Country Solo Landings

[Tom Baker]

I have done that many times in a tailwheel airplane to demonstrate control to a student. I have also done it in a 172 and Cherokee.

[FredG]

I see a lot of comments, but none really address my point. "I do not see how this is aerodynamically possible without a cross wind, while 1) keeping the long axis of the airplane aligned with centerline of the runway and 2) avoiding side loading on the wheel that makes contact with the runway."

 

We are talking about a slip, not a crab. Is anyone saying that in a CT (although it is also true for other planes), without cross wind, it is possible to "tilt a wing, slip, rudder, and land on one wheel while you flare" while keeping the long axis of the airplane aligned with centerline of the runway and not side loading the wheel that makes contact with the runway? If yes, please say how?

 

By definition, without a cross wind, while in a slip the airplane will have a ground track that is not aligned with the long axis of the airplane. In that case, how can the wheel that makes contact with the ground not be side-loaded when it makes contact with the runway?

[Doug G.]

I'm sure it is side loaded, although how much depends on how much of the planes weight you allow to settle on the wheel. For us mere mortals (and those who want to avoid the side load) it might be best to simply make a side slip approach without touchdown.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Fred, I did and you are correct. Look at the video I posted in order for him to stay on one wheel and track strait down the runway he has to yaw.

 

Crab method is offsetting drift with thrust and sideslip you offset it with lift ( bank ) so if you put in the bank to offset the drift in calm wind you will drift towards the low wing.

[GlennM]

@GlennM: Racecar and plane? NICE Just sold my Vette last year so I could buy a plane Wife said "1 toy"

 

I only have a girlfriend so there is no limit to the toys! Just the monetary limit. LOL. I drive a Spec Racer Ford for track days.

[Doug G.]

Very cool. Have been a sports car fan forever, never had the money when I was younger to race. ALMS fan recently looking forward to the unified series next year.

OK, done with the hijack.

[FredG]

CT, yes, you did. The video is hard to gauge without a view from above to best observe the yaw.

[EminiTrader]

Well if anyone is interested: Here are more landings from Friday - I edited them into 1 video. Did some touch n gos at HEG, with a go around... A little better being on center. But not the best landings.. but safe

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

Better on holding the center line, like you loose it and then correct to regain it.

[EminiTrader]

Yaeh I am aiming for that number, and then the line.. For some reason I "think" i keep thinking I am too low and I always land long.... but i'll get there... 3 more hours of solo time left

[FastEddieB]

I see a lot of comments, but none really address my point. "I do not see how this is aerodynamically possible without a cross wind, while 1) keeping the long axis of the airplane aligned with centerline of the runway and 2) avoiding side loading on the wheel that makes contact with the runway."

 

Might it have something to do with inertia/momentum?

 

I'm thinking of watching a "drunken Cub" land first on one wheel, them the other, with wind seemingly not a big factor and no side loading apparent.

 

IOW, drop a wing and roll that wheel on before the plane has a chance to begin to drift. Get airborne again and repeat on the other side.

 

When doing wheel landings in a taildagger I got in the habit of trying to roll one wheel on first, even with no crosswind. Seemed to make the plane less likely to bounce than planting them both at once. Never did get the impression I was side loading the gear to any noticable extent.

[FastEddieB]

A little better being on center. But not the best landings.. but safe

 

 

I thought they were really, really good.

 

Better than most that I see from far more experienced pilots.

 

"Pulling" the plane a bit to the left is fairly natural and common. Why?

 

1) If you look to the left of the nose when flaring (recommended practice), your body may follow your eyes and "pull" that way.

 

2) Flying with a stick in your left hand, pulling "back" may accidentally involve some pulling towards the left rear.

 

3) Pilots may try to place their seats just to the left of the centerline so the plane will end up centered.

 

1 & 2 resolve with practice and awareness.

 

For 3, try to land with your left foot to the left of the centerline and your right foot to the right of the centerline. IOW, visualize landing with the centerline between your feet. It may offset you a tiny bit to the right, but if you ever fly bigger planes, it ends up making less and less difference.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work - those were all really excellent landings.

 

 

[FredG]

I have over 1,800 landings in my CTsw, all wind conditions and all flap settings, paved and grass. I don't think my imagination is relevant.

 

My original concern was with landing on one wheel in a slip in the absence of crosswind. If done with enough of a slip to be of training value, I don't see how it won't put undesirable side loads on the gear that touches down first. I suspect most owners won't want to subject their own planes to that maneuver.

 

Regarding slips to lose altitude while on final, I do them all the time and, as many others have said, they are a very useful maneuver. Without crosswind, I always return to coordinated flight just prior to round out/flare.

[Roger Lee]

Bad side loads have actually crack and broken some of the Italian Marc Engegno wheels.

[Ed Cesnalis]

CTLSi,

 

You advise slipping then correcting to practice x-wind landings without wind. Are you advocating a forward slip or side slip?

 

We tend to use the forward slip to steepen our glide path and it requrires straitening but we use a side slip to counter x-wind drift and that does not require rudder to get strait and that does cause 1-wheel landings.

 

It's hard for Fred and me to see this being done from a side slip and if its done from a forward slip its not really crosswind landing practice.

[FastEddieB]

CTLSi,

Are you advocating a forward slip or side slip?

 

Reminder: they're aerodynamically identical.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Reminder: they're aerodynamically identical.

 

True, but I wouldn't land in a crab without changing to a side slip for touch down, the crab is aerodynamically identical to an aligned approach ( without wind )

 

Runway alignment and tracking complicate things when you are landing.

 

Aerodynamic sameness becomes irrelevant and the lift vector relative to the crosswind becomes the distinguishing factor.

 

The are functionally different, you need to align from the forward slip to avoid side loading and you need to maintain the side-slip to avoid side-loading. In the context of practicing x-wind landings with no x-wind it is a relevant distinction.

[Doug G.]

Maybe you have said this before and I have forgotten. What airplane is this? Skycatcher?

[FastEddieB]

 

The are functionally different, you need to align from the forward slip to avoid side loading and you need to maintain the side-slip to avoid side-loading. In the context of practicing x-wind landings with no x-wind it is a relevant distinction.

 

Of course.

 

But sometimes a student can get confused trying to understand the difference in a forward slip and a side slip.

 

In both, you put a wing down but then use opposite rudder to stop any turn. They are identical in this respect.

 

What differentiates them is the flight path over the ground, and whether you are trying to align the longitudinal axis with the runway (side slip) or not (forward slip).

 

I may try my tail mounted GoPro location in the next few days to see if I can do a "Drunken Cub" routine on my Sky Arrow. If it comes out decent, I'll post a link.

[FastEddieB]

Enjoy...but do NOT attempt!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJy8A4axSY0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Tom Baker]

I think anytime you are on one wheel you are likely putting some side load on the landing gear. Not enough to do any damage, but some load just the same.

Eddie I like this one better for the one wheel landings, and some of Bob Hoover's are good too.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...

But sometimes a student can get confused trying to understand the difference in a forward slip and a side slip.

...

 

Here we have 1 student telling another to practice 1-wheel crosswind landings without a crosswind. His instructions use unconventional terms and advise to " tilt a wing, slip, rudder, and land on one wheel while you flare. Or just make your approaches slipping in, dropping down, then level and land."

 

For the sake of clarity I brought it up. It seems the adviser is describing a forward slip but for crosswind practice. I would want to know that that technique is important but used for another purpose. I see the overlap, even a forward slip to loose altitude requires crossed controls and requires rudder to induce and control yaw, but in this context there is a fundamental difference.

[EminiTrader]

I thought they were really, really good.

 

Better than most that I see from far more experienced pilots.

 

"Pulling" the plane a bit to the left is fairly natural and common. Why?

 

1) If you look to the left of the nose when flaring (recommended practice), your body may follow your eyes and "pull" that way.

 

2) Flying with a stick in your left hand, pulling "back" may accidentally involve some pulling towards the left rear.

 

3) Pilots may try to place their seats just to the left of the centerline so the plane will end up centered.

 

1 & 2 resolve with practice and awareness.

 

For 3, try to land with your left foot to the left of the centerline and your right foot to the right of the centerline. IOW, visualize landing with the centerline between your feet. It may offset you a tiny bit to the right, but if you ever fly bigger planes, it ends up making less and less difference.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work - those were all really excellent landings.

 

Thanks FastEddie for the input! You make some great points. Now I really wish I stayed up there longer.... Taking my written Thursday so CFI said no more flying till test is done..... cant' wait to fly again!

[EminiTrader]

I thought they were really, really good.

 

Better than most that I see from far more experienced pilots.

 

"Pulling" the plane a bit to the left is fairly natural and common. Why?

 

1) If you look to the left of the nose when flaring (recommended practice), your body may follow your eyes and "pull" that way.

 

2) Flying with a stick in your left hand, pulling "back" may accidentally involve some pulling towards the left rear.

 

3) Pilots may try to place their seats just to the left of the centerline so the plane will end up centered.

 

1 & 2 resolve with practice and awareness.

 

For 3, try to land with your left foot to the left of the centerline and your right foot to the right of the centerline. IOW, visualize landing with the centerline between your feet. It may offset you a tiny bit to the right, but if you ever fly bigger planes, it ends up making less and less difference.

 

Anyway, keep up the good work - those were all really excellent landings.

 

Thanks FastEddie for the input! You make some great points. Now I really wish I stayed up there longer.... Taking my written Thursday so CFI said no more flying till test is done..... cant' wait to fly again!

[FlyingMonkey]

I had a long and lively discussion about this over dinner the other night with a friend. I contended that there is no way to slip all the way to touchdown in the absence of crosswind and not either (a) be misaligned with the runway or ( be heavily side loaded on touchdown. My friend thought it could be done, but I don't see how.

 

Which is true?