Ian Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 EASA is the European Aviation Safety Agency and could be described as a "super Civil Aviation Agency". As each European country still has its own CAA (FAA in your terms) moving to a standardised approach to matters aviation has been to say the least a long and tortuous road (or airway!!). What is clear is that turkeys don't vote for Christmas so while it might look an obvious move to develop an all encompassing European wide aviation authority in practice no national government would seem willing to give up its own authority - the result is a bit of a dogs breakfast. EASA now set the rules for everything but each national authority can apply for an implement derogations from any bits they don't like - typical example - the proposal for a harmonised transition altitude has been under discussion for years but still not resolved so if you fly across Europe you'd better be aware of the rules & differences!! The LAA - (Light Aircraft Association) is a UK only organisation that looks after those aircraft that don't operate under a full type certificate - typically this has been home builts etc and increasingly SEP types where the manufacturer no longer exists etc etc (Auster, Beagle, Miles and many other famous names from the past). Their web site may be of interest http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/ Now, EASA has recognised that there are whole classes of aircraft which don't have full type certificates and have themselves come up with a licensing scheme to enable them to be designated as EASA Permit to Fly aircraft - however what they haven't done yet is to allow the management of the scheme to be handled by organisations like the LAA (which everyone in the aviation community over here, excepting the bureaucrats, agrees would be the best way forward!!). At present the entire FD range with the designator FDCT all operate under an EASA Permit to Fly and we are all hoping that IF Flight Design don't reappear then the administration of the Permit to Fly scheme will be given to individual country organisations like the LAA. Sorry for re-writing War & Peace but this is regulation in Europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 Whew, and I thought US aviation was convoluted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 24, 2016 Report Share Posted February 24, 2016 You guys are rumor milling. It sparks unrest and could hurt the sales of the very people you want to do well to support your plane. The more outsiders read your rumors the more they will stay away. Rumors kill companies. Best to let the truth finish sorting out. If guys don't have any facts then it's probably best left unsaid. This type of rumoring isn't any different than when your neighbors see you walking with your grandchild and then start a neighborhood rumor mill saying you're a child molester. The damage gets don't without a ounce of truth and there is rarely any recovery. Agreed, there's still so much that we haven't seen. Insolvency doesn't mean it's game over, it means they are applying to the court system for relief to recover so they can eventually fulfil their obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Lee Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I agree with Roger and Corey, bashing FD, assuming the worst, assuming "facts" not evidence, etc. simply makes it more difficult for them to survive. We need Flight Design to recover and be a healthy company, it's the only way people who paid for their planes will be made whole. As owners we need a viable company to provide support for the long haul. As observed in other posts, lots of aircraft manufacturers have gone though bankruptcy/reorganization and survived. But I fear a person considering a plane would be scared off from a terrific aircraft. (I love my CT!) This is in no ones best interest. I own a small business and managing cash flow is very tricky and oh so easy to get wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I agree with Roger and Corey, bashing FD, assuming the worst, assuming "facts" not evidence, etc. simply makes it more difficult for them to survive. We need Flight Design to recover and be a healthy company, it's the only way people who paid for their planes will be made whole. As owners we need a viable company to provide support for the long haul. As observed in other posts, lots of aircraft manufacturers have gone though bankruptcy/reorganization and survived. But I fear a person considering a plane would be scared off from a terrific aircraft. (I love my CT!) This is in no ones best interest. I own a small business and managing cash flow is very tricky and oh so easy to get wrong! Well said, thanks. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I agree with Roger and Corey, bashing FD, assuming the worst, assuming "facts" not evidence, etc. simply makes it more difficult for them to survive. Maybe I missed something...was anybody "bashing" FD or "assuming the worst"? People were just discussing possibilities and engaging in some reasoned speculation. I think of "rumor" as an unfounded statement put forward as fact. I think discussing a situation in terms of what *might* happen is pretty healthy. Either way, I'm happy to wait for more information before discussing it further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I'm with Irish Al. There is a kinship we felt from the beginning that included FD Germany and it can be hard to face the truth when it comes to kin. The guys that paid for planes in full, in advance and got silence or stories to put them off longer do suggest pretty strongly that they were taken for a ride and are out a serious amount of money. Enough has been presented to make a judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I'm with Irish Al. There is a kinship we felt from the beginning that included FD Germany and it can be hard to face the truth when it comes to kin. The guys that paid for planes in full, in advance and got silence or stories to put them off longer do suggest pretty strongly that they were taken for a ride and are out a serious amount of money. Enough has been presented to make a judgement. The best outcome would be that FD Gmb reorganizes and then quickly fulfills their customer orders. Hopefully all the economical and legal matters fall into place so this happens. All involved should endeavor to facilitate this outcome. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrnflyr Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Don't they go into receivership so they can walk away from all of their debts. Seems like the way of the future. No responsibility or conscious, just start over... I feel really bad for the few that paid cash and I know where they're coming from. I've owned a Grumman Tiger! Orphan planes are not fun so I hope Tom P just takes it over and it becomes FD USA as the principle owner. When you need a letter of approval, you could deal with Tom and his group. FD Germany can go into the dumpster IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Too bad FD didn't get the India Air Force contract for 194 trainers, worth over $15 mil. Pipistrel did on Oct 13 2015, and full delivery by last quarter of 2016*. I do wonder if FD made a bid but either couldn't better the $78,987 USD per unit, or couldn't produce the numbers in the given time frame? http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/india-signs-deal-for-194-micro-light-planes-with-slovenian-firm-pipistrel/150244/ * Correct to 3 years, thanks CT4ME for the heads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Too bad FD didn't get the India Air Force contract for 194 trainers, worth over $15 mil. Pipistrel did on Oct 13 2015, and full delivery by last quarter of 2016. I do wonder if FD made a bid but either couldn't better the $78,987 USD per unit, or couldn't produce the numbers in the given time frame? http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/india-signs-deal-for-194-micro-light-planes-with-slovenian-firm-pipistrel/150244/ We get it, you like Pipestrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Actually the delivery is set to begin in a year... and be fully delivered at the end of 3 years. http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories4135_India_Inks_Deal_to_Buy_194_Pipistrel_Microlights_from_Slovenia.htm FWW... The Indian Air Force flew a CTsw around the World in 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 We get it, you like Pipestrel. Andy, good observation. I also wonder if they had their Italy facility at the birth of LSA, allowing them into the US market instead of being shut out due to being in Slovenia, would their numbers here be the same as FD? Timing is everything in such a fickle, high stakes market as aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Actually the delivery is set to begin in a year... and be fully delivered at the end of 3 years. http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories4135_India_Inks_Deal_to_Buy_194_Pipistrel_Microlights_from_Slovenia.htm FWW... The Indian Air Force flew a CTsw around the World in 2007 Your correct on both counts. The beginnings of Pipistrel so closley match Tom's beginnings, had they been in position to enter US LSA market at the same time as FD did, Tom might have gone with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 The beginnings of Pipistrel so closley match Tom's beginnings, had they been in position to enter US LSA market at the same time as FD did, Tom might have gone with them. Now that is just weird speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 Now that is just weird speculation. Not so weird considering both Tom and Ivo started with weight shift powered trikes about 35 years ago. Ivo Boscarol had it a bit tougher since Yugoslavia (later to become Slovenia) outlawed this type of aviation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 And if the Battle of Britain had gone differently, we'd we speaking German! EDIT: I'd be a bit careful saying what another person woulda/coulda/shoulda done if some historical series of events were different. Especially somebody who might be reading what you write. Let Tom speak for himself, don't put words or motives to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I understand at this time Tom is busier than a one armed paper hanger with jock itch, but would love for him to comment. What do you say Tom, from one early birdman to another......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 And if the Battle of Britain had gone differently, we'd we speaking German! EDIT: I'd be a bit careful saying what another person woulda/coulda/shoulda done if some historical series of events were different. Especially somebody who might be reading what you write. Let Tom speak for himself, don't put words or motives to him. I'm just glad he is where he is now, and has been able to do what he has done. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 25, 2016 Report Share Posted February 25, 2016 I'm just glad he is where he is now, and has been able to do what he has done. Cheers Hell yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Too bad FD didn't get the India Air Force contract for 194 trainers, worth over $15 mil. Pipistrel did on Oct 13 2015, and full delivery by last quarter of 2016*. I do wonder if FD made a bid but either couldn't better the $78,987 USD per unit, or couldn't produce the numbers in the given time frame? http://www.financialexpress.com/article/economy/india-signs-deal-for-194-micro-light-planes-with-slovenian-firm-pipistrel/150244/ * Correct to 3 years, thanks CT4ME for the heads up. Flight Design doesn't make a stripped down kit-like plane for under $80k...There are no margins in them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Flight Design doesn't make a stripped down kit-like plane for under $80k...There are no margins in them... Neither does Pipistrel offer "a stripped down kit-like plane", it was their Virus SW, not their Alpha Trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 Neither does Pipistrel offer "a stripped down kit-like plane", it was their Virus SW, not their Alpha Trainer. They did to get the Indian business.... Pipistrel makes their airplanes in Slovenia (not exactly low cost place to make planes like the Ukraine, but they are not at war so it turns out well for them). The Italian factory is being built to make the Panthera. Since Flight Design is delaying or not making the C4 now, the Panthera may do very well indeed...It's $100k more money but a truly elegant design..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deckofficer Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 I don't know how the Virus SW's were decked out, but retail to a private customer is $93,483.00 plus probably around $3000 shipping to States. I've been through the very long option list and for what I would want, add another $20K. I've never seen a price or option list for the FD, but from what I have heard a similar equipped FD is more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 26, 2016 Report Share Posted February 26, 2016 I config'd one on the interactive order form on the Canadian dealer's site.... more like 150K FWW, I don't think the Panthera is going to do that well... for a $500K-$700K or more, customers are going to want real service centers and a serious dealer network. And things haven't been that rosy on the development front... it was announced 5 years ago and has already missed delivery goals by two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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