IrishAl Posted April 14, 2016 Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 The company declared bankrupcy on April 1st, no more receivership. Evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 14, 2016 Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 I wish that would be true! He keeps on lying in the press with a smile on his face. The company declared bankrupcy on April 1st, no more receivership. Now the worst case scenario became a reality and we can kiss our planes, deposits or won lawsuits good bye, at least in part. So how can there be business as usual? How can he say, C4 goes ahead as planned? Don't believe anything he says anymore! Bankruptcy doesn't work that way. If they have to liquidate, creditors get a portion of it, including depositors. This includes proceeds from intellectual property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 14, 2016 Report Share Posted April 14, 2016 Bankruptcy doesn't work that way. If they have to liquidate, creditors get a portion of it, including depositors. This includes proceeds from intellectual property. What if they don't have to liquidate? I thought this BK was a chapter 11 equivalent. They can't re-organize and go forward as well as liquidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 What if they don't have to liquidate? I thought this BK was a chapter 11 equivalent. They can't re-organize and go forward as well as liquidate. Chapter 11 doesn't absolve debt. It stays it. It's basically a government endorsed repayment plan. There isn't a bankruptcy that just sheds debt and lets people go business as usual. If there was, malicious people would run up debt as high as they can and then go bankrupt. Either you pay creditors eventually, or you liquidate everything. Germany has a very strict government regarding debt. I doubt they have a "get out of debt for free" card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Bankruptcy doesn't work that way. If they have to liquidate, creditors get a portion of it, including depositors. This includes proceeds from intellectual property. I said before, they have NOTHING. At my first visit to the FD in office in 2012 I found 2 or 3 containers at the end of a village. After that they rented some offices and a hangar in Kamenz and I believe they needed a commercial aspect for the EASA. It's complete unknow the deal with AirJones, maybe they put there even the intellectual property and in June they will share to the creditors a toilet paper. This guy which a large and satisfied smile on his face at Sun-n-Fun kill my dream to have a plane and to fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 I said before, they have NOTHING. At my first visit to the FD in office in 2012 I found 2 or 3 containers at the end of a village. After that they rented some offices and a hangar in Kamenz and I believe they needed a commercial aspect for the EASA. It's complete unknow the deal with AirJones, maybe they put there even the intellectual property and in June they will share to the creditors a toilet paper. This guy which a large and satisfied smile on his face at Sun-n-Fun kill my dream to have a plane and to fly. We'll see. There's a lot of law to sort through. You can't just "give away" assets in an attempt to hide them, else AeroJones can get caught up in things, and some people will go to jail. If they "sold" the rights to AeroJones, then they will follow the money trail, and if there isn't any to be had, again, people go to jail. The C4 being ON TRACK is a good thing, because that means income. Income which is shared with creditors per the court oversight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 It's not that black and white - people regularly use bankruptcy law to wipe out large debts. Bankruptcy law can be, and often is, used maliciously. That's the crux of the question here - were FD the sudden and innocent victims of a debtor who didn't pay a seven figure sum, or is there more to it than that? At the moment, the press is telling us FD were innocent victims, while the people who have been fighting with the company first hand to get their money back are telling us they have been acting maliciously because they knew their ship was sinking. If the latter is true, then you would expect to see questionable business practices to maximize revenues in the time leading up to the insolvency, coupled with a pattern of 'legal' asset-stripping. Then, as DECZR points out, the subsequent receivership would leave a "toilet paper" to share out among the creditors. Consider the following: FD began demanding full payment in advance for aircraft - a highly unusual practice. They consistently lied to their pre-pay customers over delivery dates for several years. They knowingly traded while insolvent for an extended period of time. FD initially blamed their receivership on a customer who sued them to get his money back. Now, they are blaming a large company that didn't pay a 'seven figure' bill. Unfortunately, all the evidence available at the moment points in one direction. What annoys me is that the press is so willing to 'play the game' and publish FD's PR, while ignoring the evidence that's freely available to all. The aviation press has its own self-interest at heart (don't annoy anyone) and so it is far from objective. If FD were innocent victims, and they did have a genuine intention of resuming manufacturing in Europe, they would be bending over backwards to explain how things got this far, and they would be writing to all their pre-pay customers assuring them of their best intentions and that, once the mess was sorted out, they'd get their aircraft. No such actions are reported. I genuinely hope my prognosis on this is wrong, but the current evidence won't let me see it any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluemeister Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 I agree with Al's post above. I was surprised to see a photo of Mr. Betsch with descriptions of him talking about the future. Unless I'm mistaken, the future of FD is out of his hands right now, and any discussion of what is going to happen is speculation from a highly biased source. I'm actually surprised that he has not been instructed by the court to make no comments about the future direction of FD. Assuming the bankruptcy laws are similar to here, (big assumption I know), FD would need a viable plan to pay back the debt. If a judge decides that plan is not realistic, the company would go into liquidation, and the creditors would line up based on secured vs unsecured creditors. Any proceeds from the sale of real estate, vehicles and equipment with loans on them would go to those creditors. Again assuming that the buyers that have posted here are unsecured creditors, then they would be last in line with other unsecured creditors, unless Germany has some consumer protection law that would move those customers up the line ahead of normal unsecured suppliers. Let's hope there is a viable plan to dig out. If not, let's hope there are enough assets to make as many people whole as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 The C4 being ON TRACK is a good thing, because that means income. Income which is shared with creditors per the court oversight. Income is good. But the key would be profit, which in light plane sales seems to be devilishly hard to come by. Hence the hoary old joke about how to make a small fortune in aviation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Patience. The game is not over yet. If it was, there would simply be no company and no debt proceeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Patience. The game is not over yet. If it was, there would simply be no company and no debt proceeding. True, again the best of all outcomes, would be , in my opinion, that the Company comes out of reorganization in good shape and profitable, so that all customers can be made whole. It serves no purpose , and is destructive to talk the company down and wish it's early, demise. It does nobody any good. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 15, 2016 Report Share Posted April 15, 2016 Income is good. But the key would be profit, which in light plane sales seems to be devilishly hard to come by. Hence the hoary old joke about how to make a small fortune in aviation! I guess I should clarify that. Profit is like food, you can go a couple of weeks without it. Cash flow however, is like oxygen, you can barely survive a few minutes without it. Any kind of (non-malicious) income is a good thing. That means they are in operation, and as you said any profit gets distributed accordingly, both of which are to the benefit of everyone. If there is no profit, then the court oversight will determine how long they will let this go. Again assuming that the buyers that have posted here are unsecured creditors, then they would be last in line with other unsecured creditors, unless Germany has some consumer protection law that would move those customers up the line ahead of normal unsecured suppliers. Germany does have consumer protection laws. Depositors are high up on that list. Even distributors are lower than depositors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tai Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 AeroJones is a Taiwan independent company, and we are victims too. AJ put a big amount of money to FDG to get the licence to produce CTLS, and help FDG to develop C4, and now the situation really makes AJ in dilemma. AJ definitely will claim our right in front of insolvency receiver to protect our investment, at this aspect AJ is on the same situation with other creditors. We love aviation industry and have done a lot of efforts to produce CTLS. I had to show up in Sun 'n Fun this year, because I want shows our determination to support the customers in the worldwide; however AJ is bonded with FDG due to our production in compliance with FDG type design data. Even thought this is a free discussion forum, I don't want to make a comment I don't know. What AJ can do is keeping delivering CTLS, This is a business for AJ, and I believe this is also good to the customers. Chi Tai Hsieh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 Mr. Hsieh... Your commentary is informative and professional. We CT owners appreciate your efforts and look forward to your company helping to re-energizing this product in the future. We also look forward to a success with the C4 when that day arrives....it promises to shake up the industry and should keep you busy making them for a long time to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 If it's like Chapter 11 in the United States, debts can be reduced or wiped out altogether, yet the company can still survive. The secured creditors come first, then the subordinated and unsecured creditors, then the equity holders. A typical process is that the secured creditors end up owning the equity in the company, and the former equity holders take the biggest hit as they should. Often times it's more in the interest of the creditors for the company to continue operations, rather than to force them to liquidate. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 Starting on post #123 Pipestrel was talked about. If reading the thread from the beginning he simply commented on a post when he read it. The people who you are attacking have done nothing except be a positive force on this forum. I know you are frustrated with Flight Design, but there is no need to start attacking members of our forum community. Your trouble is not with them, and they don't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 My intention is to open a topic like Flight Design insolvency and to read about, what is new and what is the opinions about this matter very disappoint for me, you are right Tom. (one more reason to be not interested at all about the speed of Pipistrel) Why you don't open a new topic like " Pipistrel speed", let say, and who could be interesting about to open it. For me it's not cleat WHY you launch this kind of smoke over the main stream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluemeister Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 I'm going to get some popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 Thread creep is an unavoidable trait of Internet forums. Not to say we should not make an effort to rein it in. I might mention what happened when 3i, the manufacturer of my Sky Arrow, went through reorganization. Then somebody might ask me how I like my Sky Arrow. Best course of action would be to start a new thread, but often just hitting "reply" is easier. This entire post is kind of a case in point! Maybe thread creep deserves its own thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 18, 2016 Report Share Posted April 18, 2016 I do agree, new thread. DECZR, if I may politely ask in the future, if you feel I am deviating too far from the topic, feel free to ask me to move, there's no need to be upset with me . I do moderate a few other forums and know it happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted April 20, 2016 Report Share Posted April 20, 2016 Finally the court papers for filing a claim in the insolvency of Flight Design arrived.... I dont know how to copy a .pdf to this forum, anyone? Anyway, all claims must be made until May 10th... Good luck to all out there with open claims! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluemeister Posted April 20, 2016 Report Share Posted April 20, 2016 Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted April 20, 2016 Report Share Posted April 20, 2016 Hoping everything gets resolved. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted April 20, 2016 Report Share Posted April 20, 2016 Finally the court papers for filing a claim in the insolvency of Flight Design arrived.... I dont know how to copy a .pdf to this forum, anyone? Go to "More Reply Options" and you should see how to upload a file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted April 20, 2016 Report Share Posted April 20, 2016 Thank you!!! Go to "More Reply Options" and you should see how to upload a file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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